Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

If you store propane in 20, 40 or 100lb bottles, they make a dual regulator that allows you to hook 2 bottles up at the same time. I had one some time back, but the diaphram in the regulator failed and started leaking, and they are not repairable near as I can tell.

So today, I stopped by a local propane company and picked up another. The copper lines screw directly into the bottles, and the gas comes out the bottom of the regulator, which you plumb to the appliance via a 3/8" FNPT port.... it's the left side in this pic, as I have the unit rotated.....to show the red button in the glass gauge at the top...this red shows when the tank is empty and you simply flip the black lever just below it to switch over to the other tank.

54 FRNs here locally.


http://www.digistash.com/data/026a39...3_p114619.jpeg

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Dumb question: does one have to make any modifications to say, hook up to a gas stove?

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

I was kind of wondering about that, Andy.

I bought an Impco demand regulator (got from a forklift) for my 5 hp/60 amp battery charger that will be mounted in place of the bottles on the front hitch of my travel trailor. The idea was to split the high pressure line coming in from a bulk stationary tank to feed the appliances (stove, refer, HWT and space heater) and the other to feed the generator that charges two golf cart batteries next to it.

The travel trailor will be a permanent hunting/bugout cabin.

No power on my backwoods property.


.

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Nope.....this is dual stage regulator......the top part takes it from tank pressure ( which can be 100 or so PSI ) down to 10 or so PSI, and the bottom part takes it on down to appliance pressure.....1/2 pound or so...you can crank that a little bit if you have more than one thing hooked to it....like a stove and a heater for example.....it's the black dial on the big round part to the left.

To hook up anything, simply plumb out the 3/8" port with copper tubing or rubber hose rated for propane with a 3/8 fitting on the regulator end and you're good to go. I ran my house water heater and a small wall space heater off a pair of 100lb bottles for a while before I got a big tank installed, is why I had the other one. Hadn't needed one since, but I have a bunch of 100lb bottles in storage is why I thought I better pick up another.

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Thnx there TN, 'preciate it. Will put this on my prep to do list.
:clap2:

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Since we're on the propane talk a few questions since we're still searching for land.

1. Is it still cost effective having your propane delivered once you go to the bigger size (unless you do it yourself since you didn't say how much the bigger tank was)? For example Andy you mention 20, 40 & 100 lb bottles and getting a bigger one but once you start having it delivered is it cost effective? For those independently wealthy like you it may not be an issue but for the rest of us :D

2. On bottles I just pick up the ones at the store now (20lb), where is the best place to get the bigger bottles?

3. If I recall you also have those on-demand H20 heaters but I've noticed they're pretty pricey. If you had it to do all over again would you still do it or would you go traditional? Please explain some pros/cons if it isn't too much to ask.

4. Can some of you list the actual brands of H20 heaters, Washers, stoves, etc you're running and how you've liked them and again like question above would you do a different brand/model knowing what you know now?

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

1. It's cheaper, generally, to have it delivered..but that will depend on the time of year ( cheaper in spring/summer ) and market conditions.

I pay about 2 bucks/gallon to have a 20-100lb'er filled in town, and of course, I have to tote it there......whereas I pay from 1.50/gal to 2 bucks delivered. That's the reason I installed a larger tank I own.....to take advantage of cheaper prices in the summer. If you rent a propane tank from the companies, they only want to rent you a tank that will hold about 1/2 what you need for a year, or less, so they can fill you during high price times ( like mid winter ) as well as low, so it averages out FOR THEM. The price of filling smaller bottles obviously has that already figured in....plus the lack of economy of small scale.

2. Bigger bottles ( like 100lbs ) are availiable at about anyplace that sell gas appliances......I've gotten most of mine from Lowes or Home Depot in the spring when they put them on clearance. Usually pay about 70 bucks or so for them. Be aware that a 100lb bottle FILLED is about 176lbs. I have no 40 lb'ers.......and don't use the 20's much, as I've recently plumbed my gas grill on the deck into the propane line for my house.

3. I don't have an on demand water heater.....I had a 'traditional' standing pilot installed several years ago when I switched from an electric unit....BUT I WOULD go that route if I had to do it again. The intial expense is not that much if you subtract the cost of 'normal' heater, and THEN if you look at the propane used for the pilot and heating water you don't use during the time it is simply holding water when you do want it, I suspect the ondemand units are the way to go......this would be especially more critical during any time of propane shortage or severe price increase.

4. The only gas appliances I 'normally' run are that water heater above, and a 'blue flame' ventless type wall space heater we use on a sunroom that has come to be an extension of the living room. It's a small 15,000btu model, but does a great job of heating that end of the house. You could heat an entire small, well insulated house with one, I'm convinced.

And now, of course, I've plumbed in the gas grill as well.

We're in the process of doing some remodeling to our house, and when I get to the kitchen, one of the things I want to do is get rid of our electric stove, go to a gas top unit, and put in an electric wall convection oven unit. My problem is getting the gas to our island, as that end of the house, I built on a slab. Guess I'll fire up a concrete saw and set in........

I do have some gas camping type lanterns that could easily be plumbed in to run off the house line....and a large, table top type two burner camp stove unit that I use off a 20lb bottle out on the deck when doing a large batch of canning....gas heats faster, and gives much better control on a pressure canner.

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

High pressure liquid propane hose is pricy.

I moved liquid propane in the winter time a couple of times using a 50 foot length of new air hose (same as used for nail guns), but when I tried the same piece of air hose in the summer, it blistered in multiple places and was threatening to totally fail. Winter pressure of liquid propane is roughly 150 pounds (depends on exact temperature) - summer pressure is ~175 pounds or more.

Hydraulic hose for tractors is half the price of propane hose and will do the job. This is not speculation.

Carver

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Hey Tn Andy,
You didn't say how large a tank you bought.

We will eventually end up on our own piece of land soon and I've been collecting info on just this question.

What size tank did you get? How much did the tank cost? I'd be surprised if it wasn't cheaper to buy the tanks in the long run.

I always thought having a minimum of two tanks, with the possibilities to have as many as six. That assumes (I KNOW, I KNOW) you can run your spread on basically two tanks a year. You get them to come out and fill them up once every year (or two). Only when prices are cheaper during spring and summer or there is a specific dip in prices.

And what are the storage issues of owning your own tank? Can they be covered by a shed? Worry about gas leaks? Can the tanks you own be set on different sides of the yard or house? Giving the refill truck the ability to fill all your tanks from either side with a cross connecting pipes and appropriate valving.

So, oh great master of propane, teach us grasshoppers what you have learned over the years.

And as a side note, I concur about the 'on demand' hot water heaters. They may cost about half again as much as a regular hot water heater, but you only use gas to heat up the water that you will use right then. It's a must in my opinion.

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Thanks.....good tip. Even the guy at the gas company that sold me that one says "Yeah.....these things fail a lot"

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Wallew,

I bought a 500 gallon underground tank. Price was about 1300FRNs with them setting it, including both the high pressure regulator on the tank, 50' of 1/2" copper to the house, and a low pressure regulator on the house..... and I had the hole ready. Above ground tanks they will only fill to 80% capacity, and underground ones, they fill to 90%.....so take that into consideration when you get one.

Rent on the 320 gallon above ground one I had for several years was running 60 bucks/yr. Some place around I've heard don't charge rent, especially if you use enough propane, but you'd have to check locally. We have about 6-7 propane dealers around here, and the thing I liked about owning mine is I can buy the propane from ANY of them rather that being captive to the one I rent from....so I can shop the market....and their prices DO vary a lot.....so that was the real reason I bought mine.....take a long time to equal out just on the rental cost alone.....

But then I'm not a 'rent' kinda guy.

I don't know IF you can buy an above ground tank or not......I would guess so....but don't know......I think they only rent them here.

I DO know I bought a 500 gallon monster years ago when we first moved in this house, ( I mean it's ALL my 1/2 ton pickup would do to haul it home )and I have it in the basement as part of my heating system holding water. I bought it because when they get to a certain age, they scrap out the tanks. This one has a brass data plate on it, it was made in 1953, has 3/8" steel wall ! and pressure tested to 450psi. I only paid 100 bucks for it....I wouldn't have been the LEAST BIT scared to use it for propane, personally......paint that sucker up and get her filled. I've used it to store hot water in now for 20+ years and it hasn't leaked a drop so far.....3/8" steel wall, heck that think will probably last another 50 years for what I using it for.

I dadgum guarantee the the steel in the new tanks isn't but about half that thick.

The underground version, I found here they make two different kinds......one that looks just like an above ground version, except for the tank coating, and when you bury it, it's just "barely" below ground on the top.....the 'collar' deal that goes around the fill valve is slightly taller, but you can only get about 6" of dirt over the top of the tank with this kind.

They make another version that has this tall fill pipe ( like about 3-4' tall) coming off the top of the tank, and the fill valve mounted at the top of that pipe, so the main part of the tank can be sunk 3' in the ground. That's a better way to go if you can find those.

I started to get a bigger tank, but I have 12 of the 100lb tanks already ( they hold just shy of 25 gallons ), so that's almost 300 gallons I have in them.....and really, I kinda think that is a good way to go....because they are totally portable IF the need arises, where the big fixed tank isn't.....and even pricewise, they are about the same as that underground tank.....I usually pick them up for about 70 bucks when HomeDespot/Lowes put them on clearance in the spring......so the same 450 gallons capacity I have in my underground would take about 18 of them......18x70 = 1260frns

I plan to pick up another 6 or so to give me double capacity. As long as these are kept in a dry location, I suspect the life of them is pretty much indefinite.


Which is what that regulator at the top of the page is about, and why I posted it.

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

How ya been doin' Andy?

I got a trial copy of a mag/newsletter back in `92 by a guy, Miles somebody, think it was called Practical Survival. That issue had a tip about using 100lb tanks to fill larger tanks. The guy said it was cheaper in his area to buy on-site versus delivery.

So ol' Miles took a couple tanks in his station wagon and would then hang the tanks from a tree or framework over his 250 gal tank, and using a hose with proper fittings, would gravity feed his home tank.

I didn't realize how heavy the tanks were. Guess I didn't want to think about it. Now I'm going to have to think twice when I lift those SOBs into my truck. That's about the only time I wish I didn't have a lift kit on it.

On the waterheaters that are demand only. They seem like a good deal, and might be; but ONLY IF your waterheater is close by and if your well water (?) isn't too cold. We have an Aquastar 125 that we used for a while; its in storage now. Bought the one that would tie in with a roof collector, but never used that feature. They are very nice IF you don't have to heat a big run of metal pipe before the water gets where you expect it to be hot.

Those dual tank regulators are really nice, specially when the snow is 4' deep and all you gotta do is open the valve and throw the switch. We keep our second tank's valve closed till we need it, for safety. These are a pretty easy solution. Just don't forget to plumb in a turn-off valve at the appliance.

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

RichG has me thinking about a propane tank, now.

Thanks for the good discussion, guys.

My mother came into some money by inheritance, and has offered to help my wife and I install some gas logs in our fireplace. Because of my bad lungs we can't really burn wood in there except in the case of an emergency. I'm all for the financial assistance but am thinking ahead, so I'm considering buying a larger tank than is needed for the gas logs, say 500 gallon tank, (or 1000 gal??) and having it buried. With this capacity we could consider switching out electric appliances as time goes by. We would consider a gas range certainly, and our old electric heat-pump is about at the end of it's life expectancy (in fact it is past it) -- so we'd at least consider going with a propane furnace. Gas water heat would be nice, too, as there is no way our current generator will run our electric hog. Speaking of generators, they can run on propane, too, and that can be very nice.. Mom ain't paying for all that, but down the road, heh.. a guy can dream, eh?

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Andy,

I haven't started pricing any propane equipment yet. Quick question for you: The price you said you paid for your 500 gallon tank placed by your dealer - is that about the right price? I mean, did you get a fabulous deal, or should I expect to pay about the same?

We would have to hire the digging, too, so I imagine that could be pricey, but I was surprised how reasonable (price-wise) your tank seemed to be. Maybe it is not out of my range after all.

Thanks,
gpond

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Actually hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it but imagine how long this baby would run?

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Gpond,

That was the best price I found around here.....I don't think it was any special 'deal'.....I just let my fingers do the walking thru the yellow pages.....but DO shop.....because the prices I got ranged all the way up to 2k for the same tank.

The hole MAY be your greatest problem.....it's a pretty small job for anybody with a full sized backhoe, less than an hour's work for certain.....hard to get somebody to come do that unless you know them, or they are already working close by.

You might find renting a small excavator or something like that more cost effective. If you could rent it the afternoon before, and have the tank scheduled for the next morning, then cover it right back up and return the equipment, that wouldn't be too bad.

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Gpond,

If you are talking about the ditch you will need for the line just rent a ditch witch from a rental place. They will show you how to use it and a chain trencher is about as easy to operate as a riding lawnmower. Bet you could pick one up for $120 a day, maybe less.

Burying the whole tank might be a bad idea. Here in the west when we get a heavy enough snow to cover tanks you will hear occasional stories of tanks exploding because the tanks breath a little. When they breath the gas builds up under the snow. I'd like to tell you more, but it's been years since I heard of the phenomenon. Something to research if you want to bury it though.

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Gas stoves and blue flame heaters aren't a problem, but catalytic heaters and propane fridges are FINICKY about needing the right gas pressure. The regulators that come with gas grills and such are inadequate. Get a GOOD regulator.
If you ever find yourselves using a propane fridge and have ANY unusual symptoms, FIRST make sure you have the right gas pressure. Get a gas guage, very low pressure type for downstream of regulator.
My thinking on dual tanks...I have several 10# bottles at my current hunting camp...hook two up together on the high pressure side with hydraulic hose as JCarvingblock said and open both bottles, that way you're not re-lighting pilots every damn time you use 10# of gas. Do this if you have more spares, that is.

Thanks for the many good tips guys, especially Andy!

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

I have a dual 500 and 1000 to serve one place,

but they are above ground tanks.

They run about a buck and a half per gallon of capacity. So a 500 would be about $750 then add the line, regs, etc.

I get a kick out of you southerners talking about a couple of hundies for storage. Shoot, up here that would last a week and a half. :wink:

Depends if primary heat source is propane or wood with a propane backup.

I run propane everything, then just buy at low periods of the year and store it.

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

Why not manifold the tanks into a single regulator so they both draw down at the same time? All it would take is some high pressure tubing and a few fittings.

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Andy, I talked to my guy about filling smaller tanks from a larger one.
Seems that after you have the fittings, you don't need a pump IF you lower the tank to be filled by at least its own size. So a larger tank in the back of a truck can fill the smallers ones by gravity.

Also, the temperature of the 'empty' tank has a lot to do with it as well. The colder the better and this guy used to place the smaller (less than a gallon) bottles in the freezer before they ahem, took some propane to run some heaters in the VW during the 60s.

He said Harbor Freight has the hardware for filling.

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Scorpio,

If you really want value for your buck, go with fuel oil. The Toyotomi and Monitor Kerosene/fuel oil heaters and water heaters are incredibly efficient. Afterall, it all comes down to BTUs. We heat our home with a Toyo fuel miser. About 300 gallons per winter. If you live where #2 diesel doesn't gel, you can run that and get even better performance.

Propane is a great fuel for cooking, but the BTU output per gallon is about 1/3 that of fuel oil (#1 diesel) and even less than of #2. Propane quits flowing at about -40F. We have not seen a problem, but all we use propane for is cooking. We had to look hard for a non-electric propane cookstove, but if the electricity goes, it is nice to be able to cook (and generate some heat).

Propane dryers are very nice, and a propane hot water heater is inexpensive and convenient. But diesel is the champ for BTU storage, and that equals power. Diesel stores really well, and using a diesel genset will give much longer service because they are built so strongly. Propane gensets last longer than gasoline, and require less servicing, but unless you go with Onan or some other industrial genset maker, you won't get much service out of any portable generator, including Honda.


Lehman's sells some kerosene appliances, I believe; at least they used to. The Servel refrigerators can run on kerosene, and I know there are some Kerosene cookstoves still in production. #1 heating oil is interchangeable with kerosene, but about half the price.

I think oil will be a whole lot easier to scrounge, if it ever comes to that, than propane, although having a double pig-tailed hose is worth owning. Lots easier to use a siphon, or an electric fuel pump. Nice thing about using diesel is if you have diesel vehicles, those tanks are fuel storage reserves, and kept full will function/ignite for several years. I have never believed much in the "end of the world Road Warrior-ing" scenario anyway. Where will we need to travel, and why would we burn fuel to go scrounging?

Propane is super for having some degree of self-sufficiency, but Fuel Oil delivers more per gallon in terms of energy delivered; plus it is not explosive, nor is it dangerously flammable.

You might be able to find a salvage worthy diesel genset at an RV wrecking yard. Most RV gensets are not run much. Onan is now owned by Cummins and parts are available.

I can keep my garage shop at 62 degrees and the rest of the 1200 sq ft garage in the 50s for about 1.5 gallons of #1 per day. There is no other fuel source that is so economical or dependable.

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money,

thanks for the input, much appreciated. That is cheap heating on a shop. Yep, would need anti-gel or switch to Kero or #1 around here in the winter time. The Kero heaters I used on job sites and in job trailers were great, only problem was the toting Kero all the time :0(

melbo,

then that is kinda like filling paint ball guns? Liquid propane vs liquid co2. I know I get a much better fill if I preload the tank with a little gas to cool it down, then exhaust it, then go for the fill. Tanks get cold like a vets nitro semen tank toot sweet if I do that, then they take on a full fill.

Otherwise, on a warm bottle, the liquid starts turning to gas immediately, and takes up space in the tank, and you end up with a short fill.

Thanks Tn, melbo, and all for the discussion

Re: Fuel thoughts....Dual propane hookup
 

My gas company installed an old filling station on my farm. I use it to fill propane bottles for my forklifts. super convenient, and I don't believe they are charging me rent.